SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

A summary of what I know.

I am as sure as anyone can be that my wife did not have sex with another man during our marriage. Yeah, Yeah famous last words.

I know from the letters that she and her adopted brother had a passionate sexual relationship for more than a year and less than 3 years. A long time at that age.

I know first hand that they were close then and now and communicated regularly until he broke contact with both sisters and his adoptive father in July. None of my wife’s and BIL’s interactions have been inappropriate as far as I know.

Our married relationship began to spiral downward 30 years ago and accelerated about 10 years ago despite my efforts to improve it. That’s on me as much as her.

Six months ago when I found the letters our relationship got real bad real quick. She said words I never heard before like " it’s none of your business", " I will never tell you what it was I will take it to my grave", "I will never reassure you or comfort you. I never have. It was all in your mind. If you wanted that you should have married someone else", "I will never tell anyone how I feel. Not even you. I’m not that kind of person." "I’m a terrible person for causing all of this".

Her denials and attacks on me were extreme for something that happened 55 years ago. This is what raised all the red flags. It wasn’t anything in the letters.

I don’t know if any of this is EA but is it sure isn’t normal married behavior.

I think some of this could be made clearer in couples counseling but that doesn’t appear to be in the cards. The insight that this forum has provided has need immeasurable. However if the consensus is that I would be better served somewhere else. I’m all ears.

HO72, there was an article on November 30 in the NYTimes By Cathi Hanauer titled " The Case for Ending a Long, Mostly Good Marriage" that I immediately thought of when I read your story. An excerpt:

So overall, my experience has cemented my view that when wedlock no longer feels right or healthy later in life — and if, like us, you’re fortunate enough to have careers, adult kids and a willingness to do the work of a good split (not unlike being in a good marriage!) — then unlocking, becoming separate again, can be a fine option.

Maybe some of our luck came because we faced the truth before it wrecked us. Our marriage no longer felt right, and we lacked the optimism to fix it. So rather than endure or ignore, we parted mutually and amicably — and work to stay that way. If anything, we appreciate each other more now; we’re no longer depriving each other, and we can laugh together again. Also, though, Dan’s an excellent guy. That’s why I married him!

So I think I was right not to embrace those "for life" wedding vows, relics from times when women often bred at 15 and dropped dead by 40. Either way, I loved most of Chapter 2 and I’m mostly loving Chapter 3. How’s that for a happy ending?

Maybe you’ve had a good run, and it’s time for chapter 3 for both of you?

Hangingon72, I think this site is appropriate for your situation because you were betrayed and continue to be betrayed by your wife. She hid the fact that she had a sexual relationship (of some form) with her adopted a brother, and you might not had married her after knowing all that. The timing of your break up when you were younger and your reconciliation later lines up perfectly to when their relationship started and ended. And she is continuing to betray you to this day by refusing to answer your questions or give you any insights about the past half-century of your life.

I think she knows that the more questions she answers, the more questions you will have... and what you know is just the tip of iceberg in terms of a lifetime of very sick secrets. The thing is, your life isn't a court of law. Her silence doesn't give her the presumption of innocence. If she won't give you clarity on what actually happened, then you're not being unreasonable to assume the worst, which is that it's very likely that their relationship continued into your marriage (in some form or another). The fact that her brother cut off contact with the entire family right after you discovered the letters is extremely suspect.

But regardless of how many cockroaches are hiding in the walls, you need to listen to what your wife is saying:

"I will never reassure you or comfort you. I never have. It was all in your mind. If you wanted that you should have married someone else."

"I will never tell anyone how I feel. Not even you. I’m not that kind of person."

Your wife has been telling you this for years. Perhaps not as bluntly and not in words, but in her withdrawal from physical and emotional intimacy. You've been shut out of her inner world for years-- and that assumes that you were ever truly in it. Marriage counseling can't fix a lifetime of brokenness. Marriage counseling can't make her love or care about you in the way that you deserve.

I also doubt individual counseling will be of any benefit, either. She doesn't have the desire or motivation to be a better person, or be the wife that she promised you she would be when she exchanged vows with you.

I think you need to accept these facts and make decisions accordingly.

[This message edited by BluerThanBlue at 1:34 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Reference that article, ending a long mostly good marriage often goes badly for at least one of the spouses. It's the grass is greener idea, often it just looks greener but actually isn't. I am sure it works for some people but I would go so far as to say that the author of that article may be publicly rationalizing her choice or perhaps still in the honeymoon phase where she has optimism for phase 3. That optimism may end once she has more experience with the dating scene etc.

However Hangingon72, you don't really describe your marriage as a mostly good one, do you? It seems to me that it gradually devolved into a practical partnership and even that has eroded over the last ten years. These latest proclamations from your wife are fairly shocking even to us reading them, let alone to you, her long term husband. It's sad that she sees she is responsible but is stubbornly refusing to lift even a finger to help the situation or to help you. Would you changing your approach, a 180 or considering separation or D, perhaps shift her commitment? Maybe. I usually think that there is a very good chance of those things provoking change but she may not budge given what you've told us.

Is there a downside for shifting your behavior to taking care of yourself, becoming a good bit more selfish and practicing the 180? Do you lose anything? You would certainly learn something about yourself and maybe about her too. And have the opportunity to improve your daily life and see a little bit of what a separation or D might look like. It could be a good place to start rather than jump straight to separation or D. What would doing these things look like for you if you started this week? What would you start doing? What would you stop?

The insight that this forum has provided has need immeasurable. However if the consensus is that I would be better served somewhere else.

I hope you don’t hear my comments as saying you don’t belong here. I think her shutting you out so explicitly can easily be framed as a form of betrayal, and that makes a member of our very shitty club. But from what you’ve said, I personally think it’s more about her personality traits than her putting her old flame above you.

In the chaos of the affair, I found in my xWW’s old journal that she had stayed deeply connected to her old boyfriend, the "one that got away". At one point the connection was so deep he just flat out propositioned her after we’d been together for over a year and I was weeks away from proposing. She turned him down, but in her own written words she called it cheating but decided to hide it to keep the connection with the old boyfriend. If I put myself in your shoes and imagine finding that after 50 years, being in pain over it, and her refusing to discuss (and mine was like yours in that way) it would have been a disaster. At this point in my life, I think this kind of treatment is a betrayal of the very nature of what a marriage is supposed to be and if one partner is refusing to participate then it is grounds for divorce. But it took me a LOT to come to that. My xWW had a 3yLTA, trickle truthed the shit out of me, lied, involved the kids, and then decided adding some more shady behavior wouldn’t hurt anything. And STILL I barely brought myself to divorce. I know if I was in your shoes that I would not have divorced, but that I would have deeply suffered.
To summarize, one of the unfortunate perks to being in our super shitty betrayal club is you need to face the fact that ending the relationship needs to be an option on the table. True reconciliation and repair, or even just emotional connection, takes two engaged and sincere partners. Sounds like you don’t have that. So then you are left with only two options. Rug sweep and suffer indefinitely, which I really really don’t recommend. Or end the relationship, take the short term hit and build toward something new and better.

…ending a long mostly good marriage often goes badly for at least one of the spouses.

Well, right now it’s going badly for at least one of the spouses. Time for a change.

Because of my military duty, I spent a full year overseas away from my wife. I actually found that that time of separation was a powerful force for good. It felt kind of like climbing up the hill outside of the town and looking down on it, getting a full perspective for a change. I can see the forest and not just trees. Our conversations, while I was standing out in the desert with a satellite phone and she was back in the kitchen had a different kind of intimacy than when I just roll out of bed and go see her while eating breakfast.

Last, the author of that article is writing it four years after they’ve separated (but note, they are still married!) that’s time enough to get perspective.

OP, I can’t help but think you don’t have the full truth. Most here are giving your wife the full benefit of the doubt, going so far as to say there wasn’t any infidelity in the M. None of us know that with certainty. The response of your W is deeply suspect at the very least. Without that truth, and with her callous unwillingness to discuss this *loyalty betrayal* at the very least, and seeming protection of her "brother" over you, leaves you in a position guaranteed to cause you indefinite ongoing pain if you tolerate this.

Your literal only hope, imo of course, is to detach, do the 180 for your own protection, and honestly start investigating D. I *highly* doubt she will do what’s needed to save the M, but it’s 100% on her, and you should hold your head high if it comes to D, and you should tell your family why. Don’t you dare be ashamed about any of this!

Again I doubt it, but if she sees the writing on the wall, maybe just maybe she discovers a newfound loyalty to YOU, becomes willing to take a polygraph, and confirm zero infidelity with her brother or anyone else since the time you two were ‘exclusive’.

Not that anyone asked, but I believe you have grounds for D for her deceiving you so cruelly this entire M with the nature of her "brother". Would you have married her knowing all this?

HO72, last note.

My mother and father were married some 50+ years. In the latter ones, I never heard my mom say I love you. It was obvious my father annoyed the crap out of my mom. He wanted her to do everything with him, she prized her solitude. She was bothered, he was unsatisfied.

He passed first, and to be blunt, my mom was relieved. Free at last. But too old (80s) to really take advantage of it.

Do you think your wife will be relieved if you pass first? Will she have a sense of freedom?

Had the letters been written to a long-lost love (unrelated) from before your M who she never saw again, I would say no betrayal. But this is much more convoluted than that.

The more you share with us makes me think that there are some major personality disorders going on.

I mentioned my MIL in an earlier post. Your wife's responses are so similar to hers its uncanny. Shame is at her core. She is willing to abandon 3 kids, 4 grandkids and 3 greats for what? She was always kind and generous in the years prior to her husband passing, but the past 17 yrs its like she's a whole different person. Once her secret got out so did the knives. I have had to change the way I view her, otherwise she's just plain evil. I see a very very damaged person and have chosen to love from a distance.

I don't know that talking to BIL is going to help. You my friend are in the middle of a very toxic situation. If anything, I think perhaps you should seek some IC to help keep your balance and find a future path for yourself.

Hang,

Way I see it.

EA\PA with Brother while exclusive = Infidelity
EA\PA with Brother when broken up = No Infidelity (shitty actions but No Infidelity)
EA\PA with Brother after marriage = Infidelity
Lying to the OP about relationship with Brother = Borderline

How many of us would be ok with a spouse keeping an AP around for 50 years?

Peace to you

Your wife is completely checked out of your marriage. Asking the why and when and how will be beating your head against a wall. If your life is too tied up with all of it I still say look for some sort of pleasure outside of it. You could discuss opening it but you better have her agreeing to it on tape. You could find a pied a terre for the two of you to use separately to maintain some sort of household, or you could look at divorce. This is your life. Be kind to yourself.

I will say this,

Sometimes when you’re married for quite some time, you can lose sight of what a marriage should be or look like. You begin to accept that things that appear to be disgusting behavior to anyone else, as just every day normal life.

If you had come to your wife, yelling and screaming about this, I could at least understand her response.
But it sounds like you just tried to talk to her about it In a calm manner.

Her response isn’t that of a loving spouse. It isn’t even the response of a spouse who doesn’t give a shit anymore. If those are the words she used, it is plainly clear that not only does she not love you, she has active disdain for you. Shame, regret, whatever. That doesn’t matter. It’s no way to respond to someone hurting.

HouseOfPlane, I realize I came at you rather hot. And for that I do apologize. I will be specific where I have issues with your advice.

Post #53:

No, I think the problem is 100% you. Certainly, you are in 100% control of solving it. It may not be the solution you want, but there are solutions out there.

Hmmm. What do you mean he is 100% the problem? Do you think the OP is being unduly annoying asking his wife of 53 years, all these questions about those letters and that he should just be quiet and let it all go? Or is it that he is wimpy being so hurt about his long marriage imploding.

Yes indeed, in some way we are all in control of solving our own problems. Something ChatGPT could write, a bromide that is likely something somewhat true for us all. I guess. Kinda harsh when it comes to uprooting your life this way though.

You stumbled onto a situation from before your relationship with your wife. You were the one that turned that situation into a problem. It is now yours to solve.

NO. A thousand times no. He instead discovered a problem. As in, he didn't MAKE anything into a problem, he instead DISCOVERED a problem. The letters themselves that he discovered first--he discovered if nothing else that he had been spending all these gatherings with his wife's ex-boyfriend whom she was more passionate with than she had ever been with OP. But then in addition to that, he discovered that the problem goes much deeper than he thought with his wife's appalling reaction to the OP's confusion and pain.

Does it really have to be a problem? What if you had read all those letters and then just held that knowledge and took it to your grave?

What do you mean by this. This reads to me like TEXTBOOK Rugsweeping. So he is supposed to just squash what he read in those letters? I cannot think of any other ways to interpret what is in the quoted bubble just above.

If he divorces his wife, the letters will have to be brought up to his family, so he cannot just take it to the grave in either case.

Whether if he divorces his wife or just swallows it and stays married, that is indeed going to be a serious problem as well, one that he will have to push through.

Here’s a question for you, how much do you use your wife as a mirror in which to see yourself? How much of your identity is attached to your marriage to her? I ask this because of your concern about whether your identity is Plan B or plan A, and your insistence that she is the one who will determine that, i.e. she determines your identity.

I have no idea where this is going, but if you spend 50+ years with someone, you are going to find yourself using thim as a mirror. And being a bit dismayed that all this time you were your spouse's second-choice.

Post #68:

HO72, last note.

My mother and father were married some 50+ years. In the latter ones, I never heard my mom say I love you. It was obvious my father annoyed the crap out of my mom. He wanted her to do everything with him, she prized her solitude. She was bothered, he was unsatisfied.

He passed first, and to be blunt, my mom was relieved. Free at last. But too old (80s) to really take advantage of it.

Do you think your wife will be relieved if you pass first? Will she have a sense of freedom?

This reads like extreme victim-shaming. So, OP's wife is stonewalling him because he is annoying? Not trying to assume the worst this post here but I don't see another interpretation. I mean, taken outside of the context of your other posts, you could be say this is just a factual accountimg of where you think OP's wife is at. But given what else you have written, you sound like you are blaming the OP for all of this.

[This message edited by WontBeFooledAgai at 10:59 PM, Wednesday, December 3rd]

Meanwhile, I think we can all agree that the OP needs to take control of his life. Even though what happened to him is NOT his fault, moving on from this is his RESPONSIBILITY. No one is coming to save him. But even if he decides to D--the one solution that I absolutely beleive will lead to MUCH less long-term pain and will be necessary for his own self-respect--he DOES have a serious problem on his hands. Anyone who is saying "why make this a problem" or even worse, trying to blame OP for his wife's appalling behavior, is not only wrong but crazy wrong.

Uncovering such a huge secret about your life over the past 53 years, is a problem. Seeing how little your wife after all these years cares for you, is a problem. Having to divorce someone and deal with the emotional and financial fallout, is a PROBLEM. This is not OP making a mountain out of a molehill.

I read back thru OP’s posts to re-ground myself in first hand account. This stands out to me.

There is no reality in which I will believe that the romantic relationship is not in the background of their sibling relationship.

What is this other than an EA, at minimum? My apologies for missing this.

Sir, Im very sorry you find yourself here, especially at this time in your life. Im going to try and be gentle.

Firstly, I want to affirm your feeling of hurt, sorrow, and broken trust. You have every right to feel these things.

Secondly, I think youll never "get over" this. One of the things that magnifies the pain is that your origin story, the account of how you came together and bonded, is forever tainted. This has cast a pall over your entire marital history regardless of the status of your relationship through the years.

Thirdly, I find her reaction to you over the revelation of this illicit relationship and its effect on you absolutely appalling, i.e.:

She said words I never heard before like " it’s none of your business", " I will never tell you what it was I will take it to my grave", "I will never reassure you or comfort you. I never have. It was all in your mind. If you wanted that you should have married someone else", "I will never tell anyone how I feel. Not even you. I’m not that kind of person." "I’m a terrible person for causing all of this".

This is the complete opposite of how you would treat a loved, valued, cared-for partner and spouse imo.

Forthly, youve posted things like "as far as I know" too much for doubts to stop gnawing on your brain.

Finally, I think there is an affinity gap between you two that is not bridgeable in large part because she doesnt want to put in the effort.

So, I ask you, whats left? Do you really want to live out this stage of your life in a salvage effort? Think thoroughly and honestly about how you want to spend the years ahead.

I wish you wisdom, insight and strength for the path ahead, what e'er you choose.

[This message edited by DobleTraicion at 4:59 PM, Thursday, December 4th]

OK, one more note to respond to WBFA...

First, my overarching perspective

- OP is in a not-good and heading downward marriage, progressing over a couple of decades, and this is the fundamental problem at hand

- He found private correspondence between his eventual future wife and her foster brother, never meant for anyone else's eyes, that together with the 50 year history of those two can help explain the marital downward trajectory and her behavior in the marriage.

- When confronting her with the content of the letters, she confirmed that the direction of the marriage is downward.

- It's time for the OP to make some hard choices that he 100% controls.

(I deleted the rest of this post, it was unnecessary)

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[This message edited by HouseOfPlane at 8:01 PM, Sunday, December 7th]

We drove 600 miles Sunday and Monday to complete wife’s 79th cancer evaluation in the past 26 years. News was good no growth. Won’t have to do that again until March. Yesterday we drove 300 miles to her parent’s house where we did some repairs and freeze protection. Hopefully I won’t have to do that again ever. I hate going to that old house but I am the only one left who is fit enough to do the work. All the old ghosts come back when I’m there. I’m tired and hollowed out.

I have shoulder surgery Tuesday. And will hopefully have few demands placed on me for several weeks while I recover. I will use that time to think and decide what I will do. Her brother finally broke silence and texted my wife that he won’t be at their father’s Christmas lunch so I don’t have to worry about doing something stupid.

I thought I wanted to ask him about the relationship but now I don’t know what I would do with the information even if he talked to me. That feels like beating a dead horse at this point. I sometimes think I need closure but maybe I just need peace.

I think if you are going to have a healthy relationship with your wife, she needs to tell you about the relationship. Because it matters to you, because it is causing you pain. But you don’t need to know if that isn’t your aim. Both of them could get hit by lightning tomorrow and you’d still have your own life to live.

Best of luck with your shoulder surgery, and your search for closure or peace or both.