SurvivingInfidelity.com^®

Your husband is not far enough in his recivery likely to be able to express a lot of what people on this site express.

He is also likely walking on eggshells sometimes with you the same as you do him.

I think the best way to extract information if you have a concern is leave the site out of it. (Unless he is here) I would instead use it as ways to get curious about how he is feeling.

There is no formula that his every bs , but a good guideline to think about is that they will oscillate between the stages of grief. And the first many months they are just in shock, he is still trying to process through that.

One of the things that helped, and you also are unlikely to be able to do this yet- it’s completely normal it took me the better part of a year- but that fear you feel becomes desperation at times and that can be a lot for him to manage as well.its a double edged sword because in these early days he needs to see it but sometimes it causes him to bristle because it can take his space. Holding space for him without any expectation of an outcome can create a better environment in which he may share more. And creating that emotional safety can build trust.

He needs to know you fee losing him and you want him, but it can be hard for him sometimes to say the hard things. We tend to be protective of our mates sometimes, and I have noticed for men especially their protection has a lot to do with metering out how much of their truth you can take. Not always, but the way you describe what is happening I think he is simply still needing to process and sometimes not sure what to express because he is in a roller coaster. Sometimes he just wants his wife back -the one he knew and trusted fully and other times he is lost in pain so big that he is afraid to show you all of it.

The best thing you can do right now is stay open to him but focus more on addressing your own rollercoaster. He will sense your stability as you grow. And share back things that you are learning about you. Ask him if there are things he would like to go over again, but if he is shut down just say- I know you need some time to process. You have all the time in the world. I am not going anywhere. I am just going to be working on myself and all the things I can take trace that went into these terrible decisions. I am so sorry that… and apologize for what you know. And as he shares more apologize for that too. And the best apologies come with changed behavior.

I don’t think my examples of things my husband felt will help you that much - and right now it might bring more fear. Right now I would just focus on trying to give him exactly what he needs and working on yourself. When you are talking about the debate you are having in your head with a bunch of strangers on the internet, he is likely hearing your struggles with shame that may feel a little more like trying to get him to accept your truth. He isn’t going to be ready for that for some time to come.

And you are not ready yet with your reactions to some of it because it’s being reflected into your shame and then he feels like you need comfort that he can not give right now.

And I get it. I wanted so badly to take it back or to get an A in reconciliation. I wanted to change everything. It’s better for you to get comfortable with the idea of uncertainty and embrace the growth it’s going to bring. Trust that things all will work out the way it needs to. Letting go of the outcome and being comfortable in the uncertainty will not come to you overnight, so be patient with yourself as well.

Ghostie, I trust you will say if you prefer this thread to die.

We could play the whole: let's judge each other one action game and see who comes out cleaner? Are you sure this is a game you'd want to play?

100% no. I am not interested in being judgmental. Discerning, yes. Judgmental, no.

How interesting it is that all of my writings can be dismissed due to thus comment though.

That was not just one comment, it was a perfect encapsulation of the position that you continue to hold. The wayward described her situation and it satisfied your sense of justice. You commented that it was the closest you had seen to the betrayed spouse being "made whole." You were wrong; the betrayed spouse was not made whole, he shortly after asked for reconciliation. This all happened on HER thread. On the WAYWARD FORUM. I remember this because it is a perfect encapsulation of how your foolishness and pride make you both stupid and evil. The word evil is derived from a Hebrew word for fool. It is evil to allow your prideful foolishness to persist.

I must ask, Is this in line with the forgiveness that is preached in your church?

You have not sinned against me. I do not curse you. I hold nothing against you. I have nothing to forgive and if I did, I would either forgive immediately or work on it daily until I was able to forgive. CS Lewis says there are two kinds of people, those who say to God, "thy will be done" and those to whom God says, "thy will be done." I hope (and pray!) for your sake and the sake of the lives of everyone you touch that you will grow and mature, but it is not in my hands, and I am perfectly content with that. I am perhaps deficient in knowing how to help you, but I trust that if God wants you to be helped, and you permit it, he will find a way. Probably not through me.

Is this in line with forgiveness you begged from your husband?

Another wrong assumption. There was no begging on either side. Another example of your narrowness causing you to make inaccurate assumptions. When will you stop?

Hi All, I am relatively new on this site, so apologies in advance for any mistakes with the quoting and replying features.

DRSOOLERS, I had a response I thought you would be interested in regarding your note on Nov 2:

You celebrate your identity as an "adaptable chameleon" and a "survivor" whose values are intentionally flexible. While you may like this trait about yourself, that very flexibility is the enabling mechanism that made you capable of infidelity.

I do not disagree, however I had a few thoughts that might shed more light on this topic.

I am currently in a trauma center enrolled in a partial hospitalization program, and I've been exploring values and how they relate to core beliefs.

Values, as we understand them, are characteristics we believe about ourself (or want to believe about ourself), that normally correlate with our morals. For example, my main values are:

compassion, honesty, love, respect, safety (for myself and others), courage, integrity, and forgiveness.

These are inherently also what I believe to be moral. To act in opposition of these values is essentially, and in general, immoral.

However, my upbringing led to me betraying these values many times. For example, my mother is an alcoholic and drug addict, and regularly abused me when I lived with her as an only child. To avoid punishment, I had to lie about innocuous things. To eat, I had to steal money in middle school to buy lunch. To have clothing, which she did not provide for me, I had to steal clothes from peers.

These actions brought me great guilt and shame for many years, since these actions betray my fundamental values of honesty, integrity, and respect. Through therapy, I was able to reflect on my past, decide that I acted that way for survival and unmet needs, and forgive myself. The guilt has not entirely gone away, as these were not victimless crimes, but I no longer let the shame suffocate me.

This is one way in which my values had to be flexible. Of course, this is different from OP, because I sacrificed my values for basic needs. If I stole and lied, does that forever make me a liar and thief? Perhaps, perhaps not. To some people, maybe. These were questions that plagued me.

Now we come to the question: what if someone sacrifices their values for reasons that are not survival based? For example, if my friend asks me to meet her for lunch and I'm not in the mood, but instead of just saying no I make up an excuse about having to work, does that make the lie moral? I wanted to save my friend the feeling of rejection. But I am now a liar. Some would say this is defying my values for moral reasons.

However, infidelity is different from all examples above. Infidelity is the act of someone sacrificing their values for immoral reasons. Morality and values are forsaken. We can get into the "why's", but those are usually different for every WS. In OP's case, she sacrificed values for "needs" that were created due to a lack of self worth, inability to self soothe, and much more that is her journey to discover. It is also her journey to forgive herself.

One way I find that BS's also go against their values is their response to infidelity.

Infidelity is abuse. When a BS discovers their WS's infidelity, a common reaction is name calling and threats, which are normally also seen as abusive and betrays values as well, especially for a BS that would normally never act abusively. However, their values are flexible when enduring the extreme pain they endure. But, this does not mean the BS is an abuser, just like some people can lie once and not be a liar forever. Sometimes, people are flexible in their values when needed.

*This is NOT to defend infidelity, I am only trying to show that everyone has stumbled on their values in one way or another. Infidelity is a VERY extreme example, and is much more severe than the other examples I am providing above.

I suppose I used this thread to explore the correlation between labels (liar, cheater, etc) associated with values and morals. Sometimes we go against our values, but I hope the purpose of the Wayward forum is to help guide WS's back to their values and morals the best we can!

[This message edited by heartbroken12345 at 4:45 AM, Saturday, November 29th]

Heartbroken12345,

Thank you for sharing your thoughts and steering this conversation back towards the original topic.

I’m sorry to hear about what you went through as a child. While my childhood wasn’t as rough as not being provided for like that, it was, in a way, similar. I had a stepfather who was manipulative, controlling, and emotionally abusive in the sneakiest ways. He would gaslight me and twist my words around, and interrupt the conversation continuously in order to halt any sort of progress towards the mutual understanding a parent should have with their child, until I exploded on him with an emotional outburst, for which he could punish me.Nothing I did was good enough unless it was perfect or unless I was the best at it… I started lying about things to my parents to avoid that crushing criticism and punishment, so I could meet certain needs of mine.

For example, at one point in school I was running cross country, for which we were running doubles early in the AM and after school, I was taking a lifting class, and I would often either have gym class or work out again during my lunch period, so I could be a more competitive athlete and earn the best college scholarship I could. I was taking eight other classes, many of which were advanced or AP accredited, and which accumulated a lot of homework. I also had a part-time job at a soul-sucking retail store, cashiering and convincing people to sign up for the credit card… I was pretty much exhausted constantly. My stepdad didn’t allow me to nap during the very little, precious free time I had. So I would tell him I was taking the dog for a walk, take him to a nearby baseball field, tie him up, and pass out on the bleachers for a while. On more than one occasion, I lied to teachers in order to skip class, and would go to the locker room to nap, cram-study, or shower if I hadn’t managed to wake up early enough to do it before stepdad that day…

He also wanted me to watch my weight, and put limits on the amount of snacking I could do when I was home. But I was burning a shit ton of calories every day and was starving. So I got pretty good at sneaking and squirreling away food to closet-eat, and figuring out how to explain or conceal what was missing. Things like that, which eroded the value I placed in honesty, and shaped me into someone who could lie well and easily. As an adult, I still don’t value honesty in and of itself; however, I generally lied if I thought that no one would be harmed as a result, or if I felt like an injustice was committed against me first. A general principle I had was "Take no shit, and do as little harm as possible." I felt as though my convictions were rock-solid.

Now, for how this relates to infidelity… Throughout our time together, BH noticed all the little instances of deceit and rule-skirting that I was doing. But he never thought I would deceive or hurt him…After D-Day, he began to see me for how I actually was, and what I was capable of. He didn’t trust me because fundamentally, I was a "liar." He wanted to see me embrace radical honesty and start being truthful not only to him, but in everyday circumstances… So I did. But it was for his benefit, not because I wanted to.

I was reading on here about how WS have "character deficiencies" and need to do work to "change their values" and "fix their morals." I was reading the words of BS who were positing they were so "principled" that they "could never" commit infidelity or lie to their loved ones to the extent an A requires (the same thing I firmly believed before I went and did it, multiple times.) I was struggling hard with shame and self-loathing, wondering what the hell was wrong with me that I could commit infidelity and lie like that, and why I couldn’t just make myself inherently value honesty the way my husband wanted me to.

And then… I started noticing other people acting against their purported values and principles. A white lie from BH or others here, a bending of the rules there, a direct contradiction to values in the face of a moral quandary somewhere else. I reflected on how my strongly-held convictions and beliefs changed so much over the course of my life. And I came to the conclusion that people do not act in accordance with their values nearly as much as they think they do. That everyone has hidden (or not so hidden) issues that can be triggered, and in combination with the right circumstances, allow them to betray their values and cheat.

So I shifted my thinking. There was nothing "more wrong" with me than anyone else. I don’t value honesty because I am a survivor, and have had to adapt, not because I’m fundamentally a "bad person" or "morally deficient" or a "liar." I am not a "cheater." I am a person who has lied, and a person who has cheated. And I have the power to make sure I don’t do those things again with the current set of values and principles that I already hold. I don’t have to adopt anyone else’s.

This allowed me to stay out of the shame spirals I was going into and be a functional person again. Then I had space to start working on myself, and to comfort my BH instead of needing his comfort myself. So, I do invite BS on SI to hear what WS are actually saying, and think about if what they’re saying is actually going to be helpful to WS, and by extension, their BS.

Ghostie,
I agree it’s very important we dive into FOO issues to discover what tendencies we grew up with and still hold onto today (lying, secrets, hiding, etc). Childhoods with lack of safety usually lead to characteristics that allow us to betray our values. By correcting these tendencies, you are improving yourself to also be a better, safer partner for your BS. You WERE someone who lied, cheated, etc but that doesn’t mean you are those things forever. You learned lessons in the hardest of ways, but by digging deep into your flaws, you are ensuring you will live a life of authenticity and honesty for both yourself and your BS.
You’re right that everyone has gone against their values, some people in small ways and some (like us) in large ways. It is difficult to accept the past, that you were capable of betraying your values and your BS, but knowing that the only way forward is through radical change, complete honesty, sticking to your values and supporting your BS.

I don’t post much on these forums, even though I’ve been mostly lurking for some years.

This thread was like a roller coaster ride.

I understand some of the things the OP is trying to express, even though it triggers me as a betrayed partner.

I don’t allow my wayward partner to offer me any excuses for why he did what he did to betray me, but at the same time, I do know and understand some things about him enough to understand why he made the bad choices that he did, which weren’t all just about the thungs he did that harmed me.

That is not me making excuses for him, he is solely responsible for the bad choices he made and I am very clear and firm on that. He could’ve sought professional help for his issues, instead of doing what he did. Not just to betray me, but also other things he did that could’ve cost him everything that he’s worked so hard for, for many years. He could have a done a lot of healthier things besides betray me, and some other crazy things that he did.

Whether I am with him or not, I care about him enough to wish he would get professional help to face and deal with his demons.

But that doesn’t mean that I have to "stick beside him" after everything he’s done.

It is painful for me, having suffered for his refusal to get his shit together, but I have learned that you can’t really control how you feel about a person that you have real love for, and sometimes, it’s just best for your own sake, to love some people from a distance. Acknowledge that you feel how you feel about them, but not give them access to you if they aren’t mentally or emotionally healthy enough to love you and treat you the way you need. Or they just dion’t want to.

On the other side, the best thing people with Wayward tendencies, can give their spouse, or someone before they become their spouse, is HONESTY. If you are always clear about what is going on with you, how you think and what’s on your mind, it gives your spouse/partner a chance and choice to try to work through those things with you, or just get away from you, instead of you just adding a third, fourth or fifth person into your life together without your spouse/partner’s consent or knowledge.

What made me madder than anything, was the option to choose what I may or may not have been okay with, being taken away from me, by omission and deception.

Some WS’s are just assholes, plain and simple. Others are wounded people that personify the saying that "hurt people hurt people". That’s not really a good
excuse either though imo.

I have wounds from my childhood and FOO, but as I got older and wiser as an adult, I felt like it was my responsibility to not let my wounds cause me to bleed all over other people that I claimed to care about.

PrettyLies,

You are absolutely right, there are no excuses or justifications for betrayal. Just reasons, which are completely up to the WS to work on and discover, and correct in themselves. A healthy person does not turn to infidelity. What deficiencies in ourselves allowed us to choose such a destructive, harmful action? That is a very difficult and potentially lifelong journey to discover and work through. A journey during which the BS decides whether they are willing to gift R, or walk away. There is no fairness here, since a WS is inflicting pain and hurt on someone who does not deserve it (no one deserves it).

Once this pain is inflicted, there are only 2 options: for the WS to avoid responsibility and continue on the path of destruction (this could look like TT, continued lying, continued deception, additional betrayals, or leaving and committing further infidelities with future partners), or for the WS to face their catastrophic choices and make painful changes. I am doing my best to travel the second path. I am only beginning. But part of my journey, I believe, is to assist others who have made similar choices in any way I can.

You are also absolutely correct that people's wounds are no excuses to hurt others, especially people they love. I hope every WS, whether gifted reconciliation or not, internalizes this and puts in the work to make deep and lasting changes in themselves.

I'm sorry you were triggered by this thread, I imagine these topics of morals and values are a tricky and difficult subject to read about. I am here to learn.

[This message edited by heartbroken12345 at 3:17 AM, Sunday, November 30th]

I am not making excuses or justifications.

When I (and often other WS on this site) say "this is what was going on at the time I did what I did…" that’s all that is meant. I am NOT saying "I had no other options," or "What I did was just because…" or "It’s my BS’s fault because…" No. only "This is what happened…"

Maybe your WS blameshifted, made excuses/justifications, or believed he had no choice, and I’m very sorry if that happened to you. But I am so, so tired of being treated like anyone else’s WS. I am not YOUR wayward.

ETA: To clarify, when I said "hurt people hurt people" earlier in this thread, I was referring to BS who are in pain wanting to induce or prolong unproductive feelings of shame in WS online. Though it is true that often WS have unresolved trauma that contribute to their reasons that they committed infidelity… Pretty much everyone has trauma.

Edit 2: It’s easy enough to say "Yeah but if I was in that situation, I would just communicate about the marital issues and seek help for my internal issues, like a real adult!" But again I say, maybe you wouldn’t. Maybe you have internal issues that you aren’t even aware of, and so you haven’t sought professional help for them. And what if you tried to communicate to your partner about the marital issues repeatedly and nothing changed? And then what if some situation, some one, came along and appealed to those issues? I don’t think you can say for certain what you would do, or will do, until you’re on your deathbed and you can be certain none of that will happen. Do not let down your guard against infidelity until then. People don’t have "wayward tendencies…" until they do.

Should’ve could’ve would’ve is what my parents used to say to me. I didn’t, that’s why I’m here. I’ve had to accept that I didn’t so I could move forward. I can look back and ask "what went wrong?" and fix those things now. But it’s of no use to hear "Well you should’ve done this!" Yeah, no shit. I can’t go back in time and do things differently, or believe me, I would have done that already.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 12:26 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

But I am so, so tired of being treated like anyone else’s WS.

We don’t know you personally. This is anonymous. We have only your words, and part of that is you don’t value truth, so….

This is the way anonymous forums work. We share our experiences and our insights from those experiences. Countless others have listened to the insights of others from their painful experiences and assembled enough information from that raw data to learn useful things about themselves. You seem more interested in controlling the narrative (which, ironically, if you read around here a bit you’ll see is a pretty common wayward trait). You seem very intelligent, doesn’t it seem reasonable to try to learn from what these volunteers have to offer?

If you are lashing out at PrettyLies gentle post, you risk running out of people who are interested in talking with you.

Look. It’s not my responsibility to manage your improper interpretations of my words because you’re not healed, and you read more than what’s there because of that bias. If you want to lump me in with every other wayward and assume the worst about me, and then whine "why won’t you let us help you? You’re running out of people to talk to!" Fucking good. I don’t want to hear any more of that.

I’ve said my piece about how hypocritical certain individuals are being by not listening and continuing to spout unhelpful things while still clinging to this idea that you’re being "helpful" and "supportive!" And then you splutter "How dare you not accept the help I took time out of my day to offer you?" While driving new waywards on this site away. It’s ridiculous.

I’ve said my piece.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 4:44 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

Well, count me as one of the disinterested. Good luck.

Bye! Thank god.

** Member to Member **

Look. It’s not my responsibility to manage your improper interpretations of my words because you’re not healed, and you read more than what’s there because of that bias.

I don't know how to say this gently: you'll heal a lot faster and more completely if you look for for reasons to accept a confrontation rather than for reasons to reject one.

On SI, it pays off to pay attention especially to the posts that one objects to immediately.

Consider this: you have told us that 'it's OK to decide...' because it's easier, not because it's the truth. It looks to me as if you're lying to yourself the way you lied to your awful stepfather. The thing is: your stepfather was cruel and damaged your health, but you did not have the resources necessary to fight him. Your tactics were creative, BTW, at least IMO.

Now you're an adult, and you do have resources that you didn't have as a teen. In lying to yourself - in trying to avoid shame, for example - you are damaging yourself.

You can't avoid shame, especially when you're a WS. Your best bet is to confront it and redeem yourself. But I don't see how you can redeem yourself if you lie. That may be a generic statement about human beings, but it applies to all of us, IMO, including you.

The Cambridge U dictionary says a cheater is:

a person who behaves in a dishonest way in order to win or get an advantage....

That is exactly how you've described yourself with regard to shame, etc.

Yes, I'm criticizing you without knowing a lot about you, but in a way that points to actions that absolve you of the criticism. Stop lying to yourself and figure out ways to be truthful.

'Doing the next right thing' is pretty much all you have to do to redeem yourself. That begins by accepting truth wherever it lies, even if it's in a post you don't like.

[This message edited by SI Staff at 7:21 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

Ghostie, I see a level of anger in you that is very hard to ignore. I understand, as well as I can, where that anger comes from (your step-father). One of the most frustrating things in life is feeling like you're never heard. It was a major issue that I had with my exww (and my son shares this issue).

Do these feelings, anger and frustration at not being heard, negatively effect other parts of your life? Are your relationships with family, friends and coworkers colored by it? Do you ever find yourself closing off to others because of it?

I ask these questions because recognizing our own tendencies is half the battle, so to speak. The rest of it involves finding ways to mitigate them and new ways to cope with those "go to" thoughts and feelings.

ETA: I'm a Navy vet and a student of military history (and enjoy strategy games). Every good leader has tendencies that can belie their intentions, you know? Great leaders (military commanders, coaches, business folks, teachers, etc.) are the ones who can make the necessary adjustments that lead to victory.

[This message edited by Unhinged at 11:09 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

I don't know how to say this gently: you'll heal a lot faster and more completely if you look for for reasons to accept a confrontation rather than for reasons to reject one.

On SI, it pays off to pay attention especially to the posts that one objects to immediately.

"Accepting confrontations" with people who believe they know the meaning of my own words better than I do is not going to heal me faster. The "objection" is me saying "That is not what I meant when I said X… Y is not what I believe; what I told you was I believe Z…That is not what‘s happening in my life or what’s written on my heart, but rather…," and then the response to that is "You’re wrong. I know you better than you. You better listen to us; we’re trying to help you. Clearly if you’re objecting, we’re right. You just don’t like it."

THAT MAKES ZERO SENSE. As politely as one can say this… fuck that. Especially when it’s coming from people whose reconciliation attempts didn’t work out, no offense. I see absolutely no reason to trust advice from divorcees, other than maybe answers to the question, "What did your wayward do wrong such that you divorced them?"

(And if I breathe a sigh of relief and say, "Oh good; I’m definitely not doing that," who are you to say "Yes you are?" Why the hell do you think you’re the expert on me, my thoughts, feelings, beliefs, situation…? You aren’t. It’s pure arrogance to assume so. It’s more likely that you don’t like being told you’re wrong, not the other way around.)

I’m not lying to myself anymore. For the first time in a long time, I’m seeing myself clearly. Doing so initially brought in all that shame and self-loathing, which, as it turns out, are the opposite of what I need to heal and progress towards fidelity and reconciliation. I needed to pick myself up from the dirt, dust off, and get to work, not stomp myself into the ground further… I asked if it was okay to let go of that shame, and those I actually trust on here said yes. That was encouraging.

I’ve stopped expecting you to understand after being disappointed so many times.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 11:25 PM, Sunday, November 30th]

It is u fortunate that you seem to have read things into my post, tht I didn’t actually say.

What I DID say was that I understood some of the things you were trying to express in this thread.

What I did also say was that I understood some things about my Wayward partner and what he was going through at the time, that led to him making a lot of bad decisions during that time, that weren’t just about betraying me, but also potentially setting his whole world on fire in ways that had nothing to do with me. I’m not going to share the details, I will just say that I understand why he was in such a bad place mentally.

My point with sharing that in my first post here, was to say that even though I understand all of that, I still did not allow him to try to use those things to try to justify why he did what he did to betray me.

The point of me sharing a little about my story, was not to say that you were making excuses or justifications for what you did, or to say that you are somehow just like my Wayward partner.

It was just to try to get to the point I really wanted to make, and tried to make toward the end of my post….. that if there is any way out of your situation and hope for repairing the damage you did to your marriage, it will require you being HONEST with your BH. You have said that you don’t really value honesty, and I understand that your early life taught you that it was better for you, to not always be honest. But your BH is not you, and you don’t get to pick and choose what you need to be honest with him about.

If you are honest with him about everything, including what you need from him, then he gets to decide whether or not he is willing to or capable of, doing and giving you the things you tell him you really need from him. And he needs to feel free to be honest about what he really needs from you. And you both get to determine for yourselves if there is a compromise to work on, or in this situation, whether real reconciliation is a realistic possibility if that’s what you both want. Just wanting it, doesn’t make it really be realistic, if both of you aren’t willing to do the work to make it happen.

My post obviously triggered you, even though that was not my intention. I understand why you are defensive here, but I think that you also misinterpret things that are said, and take them as a personal attack, when it’s not that at all. Just like you accuse people of misinterpreting what you write.

I typed my post as kindly as I was capable of, in that moment, and honestly, I think that the way you took it and reacted to it, says more about you than what I wrote.

People don’t have "wayward tendencies…" until they do.

That is not necessarily true. Some people just do not have good boundaries, have self esteem issues, mental health issues and a lot of other issues that make them have wayward tendencies. And many people struggling with all of that or more, still CHOOSE not to betray their spouses/partners with their actions, even when they are struggling with some things or a lot of things.

I have thought many times, about "cheating back". And I have had many opportunities to do so. But who I want to be as a person, means that I can’t do that, for my own sake. I like attention from men. I like it when men make it clear that they find me attractive. But I also have good boundaries and respect for my partner, even when I am starved for the attention from him, that other men are willing to give me. So I just say "Thank you" for the compliments, and "nah, I’m good" when they try to shoot their shot to go past the compliments, to "try to get to know me".

And that is even when I’m in a world of hurt, because of what the person I trusted the most, did to betray me. What I do to not entertain other men, isn’t about him, it’s about me and my own integrity and keeping the promises I made, until I say very clearly to him that all bets are off, and I’m going to do whatever I want to do, with whoever I want to do it with.

So I CAN say that I wouldn’t go behind my spouse/partner’s back and cheat on them. Because in my mind, I can try to justify doing to him, what he did to me. But I don’t, because my personal rules for ME, mean that I give the same kind of honesty that I expect to receive when it comes to things like that. And I have to be true to me and what kind of person I want to be, more than I want to do things that go against all of that, regardless of who and what I’m dealing with. But that’s just me.

I thought to myself, "Maybe I am being defensive. Maybe she didn’t actually say or imply the things you heard…" and then I went back and read it three more times and wondered how, in this specific context, one could hear it any other way. If you say you meant it differently than the way I read it, I will try to believe you, as I have requested of others here.

I recognize that you were venting about your WS and what happened in your relationship. Then it just seemed like you were interpreting the things that I said as excuses, justifications, blameshifting, etc. Even in your latest response, I think you’ve got me wrong:

that if there is any way out of your situation and hope for repairing the damage you did to your marriage, it will require you being HONEST with your BH. You have said that you don’t really value honesty, and I understand that your early life taught you that it was better for you, to not always be honest. But your BH is not you, and you don’t get to pick and choose what you need to be honest with him about.

I said that I don’t inherently value honesty in and of itself, but that I’ve put radical honesty into practice in my everyday life specifically for him, as he’s requested. I believe that this will be functionally "good enough." The only thing I’ve really smudged the truth on in the past few months was telling my 4 yo the rooster we gave away was probably going to a nice farm where he would have lots of room to run around and sire lots of baby chicks, when the truth was that I’m almost sure he became dinner for the family that picked him up. And I felt guilty about that one, but also how are you supposed to tell a young child her favorite chicken probably got eaten? I don’t know if she’s ready to learn about death or the fact that the meat she eats was once living animals quite yet… I digress.

The point is that I am being as honest as I can be. I think that he is well aware of what I need from him as a partner and he is doing his best to give those things to me. I believe that he can, and I appreciate his efforts so, so much. He is a wonderful partner overall to me, and an inspiration to be better…I am constantly asking (and trying to figure out on my own) what he needs from me. I feel like often times he himself doesn’t know the answer to that question. I am trying to be patient and let him figure it out in his own time. He is slowly, ever so cautiously, beginning to share his feelings with me again, and even though it can be really painful sometimes, I’m overjoyed that he’s doing it. This is the connection and emotional intimacy I have been craving.

Edited to include: the more you try to convince yourself you would never, could never, or will never cheat, the more vulnerable to cheating you become. Honestly, I trust my husband way more because I know that he has cheated in his previous marriage, so he knows that he is capable of it, and doesn’t believe he is invulnerable to it.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 2:01 AM, Monday, December 1st]

Okay. I am honestly not trying to argue with you or belittle you in any way. I tried to explain that with my second post here, but that didn’t go over well either. So I will just say okay, and leave it alone, since I seem to keep upsetting you even though I don’t mean to.

I am trying to warn you so that you don’t make the same mistakes I did. I said much of the exact same things you have before I went and committed infidelity.

Why do you have "boundaries" if you don’t believe yourself capable of cheating? Why not hang out one-on-one with your opposite sex coworker frequently, and enjoy deep conversations with him? You would never have an EA; you have principles! You know that’s wrong. And that EA would never progress to a PA, even if you did catch feelings for him and feel attraction for him. No, how could you??

Or maybe, you could. Maybe your values and morals and principles alone aren’t enough to save you, so you take preemptive measures to make that less likely to happen. I don’t think there’s any shame in admitting that.

None of us are infallible. Take heed. Put as many preventative methods in place as you can. Monitor yourself closely, always. Introspect and look for those sleeper issues. Do not get complacent.

[This message edited by Ghostie at 3:13 AM, Monday, December 1st]